美国总统大选第二场电视辩论

美国总统大选第二场电视辩论
Tran script of sec ond McCa in, Obama debate
NASHVILLE, Tenn essee (CNN) -- Preside ntial can didates Joh n McCa in and Barack Obama debated in Nashville, Tenn essee, on Tuesday ni ght. NBC's Tom Brokaw moderated the debate. Here is a tran script of that debate.
domestic and foreig n policy. Neither the commissi on can didates have see n the questi ons. And although we won't be able
to get to all of them tonight, we should have a wide-ranging
discussi on one mon th before the electi on. Each can didate will have two minu tes to resp ond to a com mon questi on, and there will be a on e-m inute follow-up. The audie nee here in the hall has agreed to be
TOM: Good eve ning from
Belm ont Un iversity in Nashville, Tennessee. I'm Tom Brokaw
of NBC News. And welcome to this sec ond preside ntial debate, sponsored by the Commissi on
on Presidential
Debates. Tonight's debate is the only one with a town hall format. The Gallup Orga ni zati on chose 80 un committed voters
from the Nashville area to be here with us tonight. And earlier today,
each of them gave me a copy of their questi on for the can didates.
From all of these questi ons -- and from tens of thousa nds submitted
on li ne
I have selected a long list of excellent questions on nor the
polite, and atte ntive, no cheeri ng or outbursts. Those of you at home,
of course, are not so constrained. The only exception in the hall is
right now, as it is my privilege to in troduce the can didates, Sen ator
Barack Obama of Illinois and Senator John McCain of Arizona.
Gen tleme n?
Gentlemen, we want to get underway immediately, if we you last met at Ole
Miss 12 days ago, the world has cha nged a great deal, and not for the better. We still don't know where the bottom is
at this time. As you might expect, many of the questions that we hav from here in the hall tonight and from online have to do with
American economy and, in fact, with global economic conditions. I beg in toni ght. And we're going to have our first questio n from over here in Secti on A from Ala n Schaefer. Ala n ?
QUESTION: With the economy on the downturn and retired and older citize ns and workers losi ng their in comes, what's the fastest, most positive soluti on to bail these people out of the econo mic ruin?
OBAMA: Well, Alan , tha nk you very much for the questi on. I want to
first, obviously, thank Belmont University, Tom, thank you, and to all
of you who are participating tonight and those of you who sent e-mail questio ns in. I thi nk everybody knows now we are in the worst finan cial crisis since the Great Depressi on. And a lot of you I think are worried about your jobs, your pensions, your retireme nt acco unts,
your ability to send your child or your grandchild to college. And I believe this is a final verdict on the failed econo mic policies of the
can. Since the
understand that you flipped a coin. And, Senator Obama, you will
last eight years, stro ngly promoted by Preside nt Bush and supported by Senator McCain,
that essentially said that we should strip away regulations, consumer protections, let the market run wild, and prosperity would rain dow n on all of us. It has n't worked out that way.
And so now we've got to take some decisive acti on.
Now, step one was a rescue package that was passed last week. We've got to make sure that works properly. And that means strong oversight, making sure that investors, taxpayers are getting their money back and treated as in vestors. It mea ns that we are crack ing dow n on CEOs and making sure that they're not gett ing bonu ses or
golde n parachutes as a con seque nee of this package. An d, i n fact, we
just found out that AIG, a company that got a bailout, just a week
after they got help went on a $400,000 jun ket. And I'll tell you what,
the Treasury should dema nd that money back and those executives should be fired. But that's only step one.
The middle-class n eed a rescue package. And that means tax cuts for the middle-class. It
mea ns help for homeow ners so that they can stay
in their homes. It means that we are helping state and local
governments set up road projects and bridge projects that keep
people in their jobs. And the n Ion g-term we've got to fix our health
care system, we've got to fix our energy system that is putting such an
eno rmous burde n on families. You n eed somebody work ing for you
and you've got to have somebody in Washington who is thinking about the middle class and not just those who can afford to hire
lobbyists.
TOM : Se nator McCa in?
MCCAIN: Well, thank you, Tom. Tha nk you, Belmo nt Un iversity. And
Sen ator Obama, it's good to be with you at a tow n hall meeti ng. And
Ala n , tha nk you for your questio n. You go to the heart of America's
worries toni ght. America ns are an gry, they're upset, and they're a little fearful. It's our job to fix the problem.Now, I have a pla n to fix
this problem and it has got to do with energy independence. We've
got to stop sending $700 billio n a year to coun tries that don't want us
very -- like us very much. We have to keep America ns' taxes low. All
America ns' taxes low. Let's not raise taxes on an ybody today. We obviously have to stop this spending spree that's goi ng on in Washington. Do you know that we've laid a $10 trillion debt on these young America
ns who are here with us toni ght, $500 billio n of it we owe to China? We've got
to have a package of reforms and it has got to
lead to reform prosperity and peace in the world. And I think that
this problem has become so severe, as you know, that we're going to
have to do something about home values. You know that home
values of retirees con ti nues to decli ne and people are no Ion ger able to afford their mortgage payme nts. As preside nt of the Un ited States Alan, I would order the secretary of the treasury to immediately buy up the bad home loan mortgages in America and
renegotiate at the n ew value of those homes -- at the dimini shed value of those homes
TOM: Senator, we have one minute for a discussion here. Obviously the powers of the
treasury secretary have bee n greatly expa nded. The most powerful officer in the cab inet now. Hank Pauls on says he won't stay on. Who do you have in mind to appo int to that very importa nt
and let people be able to make those be able to m payments and stay in their homes. Is it expensive? Yes. know, my friends,
until we stabilize home values in Amer never going to start turning around and
creating jobs and fixing our economy. And we've got to give some trust and con
fide nee America. I know how the do that, my friends. And it's my proposal,
it's not Sen ator Obama's proposal, it's not Preside nt Bush's proposa But I
know how to get America worki ng aga in, restore our economy and take care of
work ing America ns. Thank you. ake those
But we all ica, we're back to
post? Se nator McCai n?
MCCAIN: Not you, Tom.
TOM : No, with good reaso n.
MCCAIN: You know, that's a tough question and there's
qualified America ns. But I think the first criteria, Tom, would have
exte nt, Tom, is that we don't have trust and con fide nee in stituti ons because of the corrupti on on Wall Street and the greed and excess and the crony ism in
Wash ington, D.C.
TOM: All right. Senator McCain -- Senator Obama, who do you have in mind for treasury secretary?
a lot of to be somebody who immediately America ns ide nti f y with,
immediately say, we can trust that in dividual. A supporter of Sen ator
Obama's is Warren Buffett. He has already weighed in and
helped stabilize some of the difficulties in the markets and with companies
and corporati on s, i nstituti ons today. I like Meg Whitma n, she knows
what it's like to be out there in the marketplace. She knows how to
create jobs. Meg Whitman was CEO of a company that started with 12
people and is now 1.3 million people in America make their living off
eBay. Maybe somebody here has done a little bus in ess with them.
But the point is it's going to have to be somebody who in spires trust
and con fide nee.
Because the problem in America today to a large in our
OBAMA: Well, Warren would be a pretty good choice -- Warren
Buffett, and rm pleased to have his support. But there are other folks out there. The key is making sure that the next treasury secretary
un dersta nds that it's not eno ugh just to help those at the top.
Prosperity is not just going to trickle down. We've got to help the middle class. OBAMA: And we've -- you know, Sen ator McCa in and I
have some fun dame ntal disagreeme nts on the econo my, start ing with Senator McCain's statement earlier that he thought the fun dame ntals of the economy were sound. Part of the problem here is that for many of you, wages and in comes have flat-l in ed. For many of you, it is gett ing harder and harder to save, harder and harder to retire. And that's why, for example, on tax policy, what I want to do is
provide a middle class tax cut to 95 percent of working
eno ugh time with their kids, because they are struggli ng ends meet. Senator
McCain is right that we've got to stabilize housing
prices. But un derly ing that is loss of jobs and loss of in come. That's someth ing that the n ext treasury secretary is going to have to work on.
TOM: Sen ator Obama, tha nk you very much. May I remi nd both of
America ns, those who are working
two jobs, people who are not spending
to make
you, if I can, that we're operat ing un der rules that you sig ned off on
and whe n we have a discussi on, it really is to be confined with in
about a min ute or so. We're going to go now, Sen ator McCai n, to the next question from you from the hall here, and it comes from Oliver
Clark (ph), who is over here in secti on F. Oliver?
QUESTION: Well, Sen ators, through this econo mic crisis, most of the because as you just described it, bailout, when I believe that it's
rescue, because -- because of the greed and excess in Wash ington and Wall Street, Mai n Street was pay ing a very heavy price, and we know
that. I left my campaign and suspended it to go back to Washington to make sure that there were additional protections for the taxpayer in the form of good oversight, in the form of taxpayers being the first to be paid back whe n our economy recovers -- and it will recover -- and a nu mber of other measures.
But you know, one of the real catalysts, really the match that lit this fire was Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. I 'll bet you, you may n ever eve n
have heard of them before this crisis. But you know, they're the ones that, with the
encouragement of Senator Obama and his cronies and his friends in Washington, that went out and made all these risky loans, gave them to people that could n ever afford to pay back. people that I know have had a
bailout package, I was won deri ng
help those people out. difficult time. And through this what it is that's going to actually
MCCAIN: Well, thank you, Oliver, and that's an excellent question,
And you know, there were some of us that stood up two years ago and said we've got to enact legislation to fix this. We've got to stop this greed and excess. Mea nwhile, the Democrats in the Sen ate and some -- and some members of Con gress defe nded what Fannie and Freddie were doing. They resisted any change. Meanwhile, they were getting all
kinds of money in campaign contributions. Senator Obama was the sec ond highest recipie nt of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac money in history -- in history. So this rescue package means that we will stabilize markets, we will shore up these institutions. But it's not eno ugh. That's why we're going to have to go out into the hous ing market and we're going to have to buy up these bad loa ns and we're going to have to stabilize home values, and that way, America ns, like
Alan, can realize the American dream and stay in their home. But Fannie and Freddie were the catalysts, the match that started this forest fire. There were some of us -- there were some of us that stood up aga inst it. There were others who took a hike.
TOM: Sen ator Obama?
OBAMA: Well, Oliver, first, let me tell you what's in the rescue
package for you. Right now, the credit markets are frozen up and what that mea ns, as a practical matter, is that small bus in esses and
some large bus in esses just can't get loa ns. If they can't get loan, that means that they can't make payroll. If they can't make payroll,
then they may end up hav ing to shut their doors and lay people off.
And if you imagine just one company trying to deal with that,
imagine a million companies all across the country. So it could end
up hav ing an adverse effect on everybody, and that's why we had to
take acti on. But we should n't have bee n there in the first place.Now, I've got to correct a little bit of Senator McCain's history,
surpris in
gly.
Let's, first of all, understand that the biggest problem in this whole process was the deregulation of the financial
Sen ator McCa in, as rece ntly as March, bragged about the fact that h
is a deregulator. On the other hand, two years ago, I said that we've
got a sub-prime lending crisis that has to be dealt with.
Secretary Pauls on, I wrote to Federal Reserve Chairma n
now
not system.
I wrote to Bernanke,
and told them this is something we have to deal with, and nobody
did anything about it. A year ago, I went to Wall Street and said we've
got to reregulate, and nothing happened. And Senator McCain duri ng that period said that we should keep on deregulati ng because
that's how the free enterprise system works. Now, with respect to
Fannie Mae, what Sen ator McCa in did n't men tio n is the fact that this
bill that he talked about was n't his own bill. He jumped on it a year
after it had been introduced and it never got passed. An d I never promoted Fannie Mae. In fact, Sen ator McCai n's campaig n chairma n's firm was a lobbyist on behalf of Fannie Mae, not me. So --
but, look, you're not interested in hearing politicians fin gers. What you're in terested in is tryi ng to figure out, how is this poin ti ng
going to impact you? This is not the end of the process; this is the
beg inning of the process. And that's why it's going to be so importa nt
for us to work with homeowners to make sure that they can stay in
their homes. The secretary already has the power to do t hat in the rescue package, but it has n't bee n exercised yet. And the next preside nt has to make sure that the n ext Treasury secretary is
thinking about how to strengthen you as a home buyer,
homeowner, and not simply think about bailing out banks on Wall
Street.
TOM: Sen ator Obama, time for a discussi on. I'm going to beg in with
you as a
you. Are you saying to Mr. Clark (ph) and to the other members of the American television audienee that the American economy is going to get much worse before it gets better and they ought to be
effectively, if we stabilize the housing market -- which I believe can, if we go out and buy up these bad loa ns, so that people can have a n ew mortgage at the n ew value of their home -- I think if we get rid
prepared for that?
OBAMA: No, I am con fide nt about the America n economy. But we are going to have to have some leadership from Washington on ly sets out much better regulati ons for the finan cial system. The problem is we still have a archaic, 20th-ce ntury regulatory system for that not
21st-ce ntury finan cial markets. We're going to have to coord in ate with other coun tries to make sure that whatever acti ons we take wor But most importa ntly, we're going to have to help ordinary families be able to stay in their homes, make sure that they can pay their bills, deal with critical issues like health care and en ergy, and we're going to have to change the culture in Washington so that lobbyists and special interests aren't driving the process and your voi ces aren't
being drow ned out. TOM: Sen ator McCa in, in all can dor, do you think the economy is
going to get worse before it gets better? MCCAIN: I th ink it depe nds on what we do. I thi nk
if we act
we
of the crony ism and special in terest in flue nee in Wash ington so we can act more effectively. My frien d, I'd like you to see the letter that a group of sen ators and I wrote warni ng exactly of this crisis. Sen ator
Obama's name was not on that letter. The point is -- the point is that we can fix our economy. America ns' workers are the best in the world. They're the fun dame ntal aspect of America's economy. Th most inno vative. They're the best -- they're most -- have best -- we're the best exporters. We're the best importers. They're most effective. They are the
best workers in the world. And we've got to give them a cha nee. They've got -- we've got to give them a cha nee to do their best again. And they are the innocent bystanders here in what biggest financial crisis and challenge of our time. We can do it.
TOM: Thank you, Senator McCain. We're going to continue Section F, as it turns out. Senator Obama, this is a question from you from Theresa Fin ch. Theresa ?
QUESTION: How can we trust either of you with our mo both parties got -- got us into this global econo mic crisis?
OBAMA: Well, look, I understand your frustration and your cynicism, because while you've bee n carry ing out your resp on sibilities -- most
're the
is the
over in
whe n
of the people here, you've got a family budget. If less money is coming in, you end up making cuts. Maybe you don't go out to dinner as much. Maybe you put off buying a new car. That's not what
happe ns in Wash ington. And you're right. There is a lot of blame to go around. But I think it's important just to remember a little bit of history. Whe n George Bush came into office, we had surpluses. And
Bush came into office, our debt -- national
debt was around
trillion. It's now over $10 trillion. We've almost doubled it. And while it's true that n obody's completely innocent here, we have had over the last eight years the biggest in creases in deficit spe nding and n atio nal debt in our history. And Sen ator McCai n voted for four out of five of those George Bush budgets. So here's what I would do. I'm going to spe nd some money on the key issues that we've got to work on. You know, you may have seen your health care premiums go up. We've got to reform health care to help you and your budget. We are
going to have to deal with en ergy because we can't keep on borrow ing from the Chinese and sending money to Saudi Arabia. We are mortgag ing our childre n's future. We've got to have a differe nt en ergy
pla n. We've got to in vest in college affordability. So we're going to have to make some in vestme nts, but we've also got to make spe nding
now we have half-a-trillion-dollar
deficit annu ally. When George
$5
so
cuts. And what I've proposed, you'll hear Senator McCain say, well, he's proposing a whole bunch of new spending, but actually cutting more than I'm spending so that it will be a net spending cut. The key is whether or not we've got priorities that are working for you
Washington lately, and that's mostly lobbyists and special interests. We've got to put an end to that.
TOM: Sen ator McCa in?
MCCAIN: Well, Theresa (ph), thank you. And I ca n see why you feel
that cynicism and mistrust, because the system in Washington broke n. And I have bee n a con siste nt reformer. I have advocated an take n on the special in terests, whether they be the big money people by reach ing across the aisle and worki ng with Sen ator Fein gold campaign finance reform, whether it being a variety of other issues, worki ng with Sen ator Lieberma n on tryi ng to address climate cha nge.
I have a clear record of bipartisanship. The situation today cries out for bipartisa
nship. Sen ator Obama has n ever take n on his leaders of his party on a si ngle issue. And we n eed to reform. And so let's look at
our records as well as our rhetoric. That's really part of your mistrust
here. And now I suggest that maybe you go to some of these orga ni zati ons that are the watchdogs of what we do, like the Citize ns Against Gover nment Waste or the Nati onal
Taxpayers Union or these other organizations that watch us all the time. I don't expect you to watch every vote. And you know what you'll find? This is the most liberal big-spe nding record in the Un ited States Sen ate. I have fought aga inst excessive spe nding and outrages. I have fought to reduce the earmarks and elimi nate them. Do you know that Sen ator Obama has
voted for -- is proposing $860 billion of new spending now? New spe nding. Do you know that he voted for every in crease in spe nding that I saw come across the floor of the Un ited States Sen ate while we were work ing to elim in ate these pork barrel earmarks? He voted
I'm as opposed to those who have been dictating
the policy in
is
on
for n early a billi on dollars in pork barrel earmark projects, i nclud ing, by
the way, $3 million for an overhead projector at a planetarium in Chicago, Illinois. My friends, do we need to spend that kind of
mon ey? I think you have to look at my record and you have to look at his. Then you have to look at our proposals for our econo my, not $860
billion in new spending, but for the kinds of reforms that keep
people in their jobs, get middle-in come America ns work ing aga in, and gett ing our economy moving aga in. You're going to be exam ining our proposals toni ght and in the future, and en ergy in depe ndence is a way to do that, is one of them. And drilling offshore and nuclear power are two vital eleme nts of that. And r ve bee n support ing those
and I know how to fix this econo my, and elim in ate our depe ndence on foreig n oil, and stop sending $700 billi on a year overseas.
TOM: We've run out of time. We have this one-minute ( period going on here. There are new economic realities that every one in this hall and across this country un dersta nds there are going to have to be some choices made. Health energy policies, and entitlement reform, what are going priorities in what order? Which of those will be your highest priority your first year in office and which will follow in sequenee McCai n?
MCCAIN: The three priorities were health...
TOM: The three -- health care, en ergy, and en titleme nt reform: Soci Security and Medicare .In what order would you put them in terms o priorities?
MCCAIN: I thi nk you can work on all three at o nee, Tom. I thi nk it's
very important that reform our entitlement programs. My friends, we are not going to be able to provide the same ben efit for present-day workers that we are going -- that present-day retirees
out there that policies, o be your
Sen ator
have today. We're going to have to sit down across the table,
Republica n and Democrat, as we did in 1983 betwee n Ron ald Reaga n
and Tip O'Neill. I know how to do that. I have a clear record of
reaching across the aisle, whether it be Joe Lieberman or Russ Fein gold or Ted Kenn edy or others. That's my clear record. We can
work on nu clear power pla nts. Build a whole bunch of them, create
millio ns of new jobs. We have to have all of the above, alter native
fuels, wind, tide, solar, n atural gas, clea n coal tech no logy. All of thes
things we can do as America ns and we can take on this missi on and
we can overcome it.
My friends, some of this $700 billion ends up in the hands of terrorist
orga ni zati ons. As far as health care is concern ed, obviously, every one
is struggling to make sure that they can afford their premiums and
that they can have affordable and available health care. That's the n ext issue. But we can do them all at on ce. There's no -- and we have
to do them all at once. All three you mentioned are c ompelli ng national security requirements.
TOM: rm trying to play by the rules that you all established. One
min ute for discussi on. Sen ator Obama, if you would give us your list
of priorities, there are some real questi ons about whether everyth ing
can be done at once.
OBAMA: We're going to have to prioritize, just like a family has to
prioritize. Now, I've listed the things that I think have to be at the top of the list. En ergy we have to deal with today, because you're pay ing
$3.80 here in Nashville for gasoline, and it could go up. And it's a
strain on your family budget, but it's also bad for our national security, because coun tries like Russia and Ven ezuela and, you know,
in some cases, coun tries like Iran, are ben efit ing from higher oil prices. So we've got to deal with that right away. That's why I've called for an in vestme nt of $15 billi on a year over 10 years. Our goal should
be, in 10 year's time, we are free of dependence on Middle Eastern oil.
And we can do it. Now, whe n JFK said we're going to the Moon in 10 years, n obody was sure
how to do it, but we un derstood that, if the America n people make a decisi on to do someth
in g, it gets done. So that would be priority nu mber one.
Health care is priority number two, because that broken health care
system is bad not only for families, but it's making our bus in esses
less competitive. And, nu mber three, we've got to deal with educati on so that our young people are competitive in a global economy. But
just one point I want to make, Tom. Senator McCain mentioned looking at our records. We do
need to look at our records. Senator McCain likes to talk about earmarks a lot. And that's
important. I
want to go line by line through every item in the federal budget and elim in ate programs
that don't work and make sure that those that do work, work better and cheaper. But un
dersta nd this: We also have to look at where some of our tax reve nues are going. So whe n
Sen ator
McCa in proposes a $300 billio n tax cut, a continu ati on not only of the
Bush tax cuts, but an additi onal $200 billi on that he's going to give to big corporati on s, i nclud ing big oil compa ni es, $4 billio n worth, that's money out of the system. And so we've got to prioritize both our spe nding side and our tax policies to make sure that they're work ing for you. That's what I'm going to do as preside nt of the Un ited States.
TOM: All right, gen tleme n, I want to just remi nd you one more time
about time. We're going to have a larger deficit than the federal
government does if we don't get this under control here before too long. Senator McCain, for you, we have our first question from the
Internet tonight. A child of the Depression, 78-year-old Fiora (ph)
from Chicago.
Question: Since World War II, we have never been asked to sacrifice anything to help our coun try, except the blood of our heroic men and wome n. As preside nt, what sacrifices -- sacrifices will you ask every America n to make to help restore the America n dream and to get out。